Could CBD COP16 be a turning point for nature?
- Date: 15 October 2024
Next week global leaders will convene in Cali, Colombia for an important meeting: the 16th meeting of the Conference of the Parties to the UN’s Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD COP16). You’re probably more familiar with the climate COP that happens every year, but the biodiversity COP is a critical forum for addressing the loss of nature.
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Two years ago, at COP15 in Montreal, the nations of the world agreed to a new Global Biodiversity Framework, which set a goal to halt and reverse nature loss by 2030. Next week’s meeting in Colombia is the first opportunity to take stock of progress and commit to implementation at scale. Joining the show today to tell us more about COP16 and what’s at stake is Lucía Ruiz, WWF’s director for conservation areas. Lucía will be attending the conference in Colombia next week and is going to help us understand what needs to happen, and what success looks like, at this important meeting.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Seth Larson: Welcome to Nature Breaking, a World Wildlife Fund podcast, focused on news and trends affecting our natural world and the people and species who call it home. I'm Seth Larson. And today we're going to hopefully teach you everything you need to know about a big meeting that's going to be in the headline soon: the 16th meeting of the Conference of the Parties to the UN Convention on Biological Diversity, which is being held in Cali, Colombia, beginning on October 21st. We'll just call it COP16 for short. You're probably more familiar with the climate COP that happens every year, but the biodiversity COP is a critical forum for addressing the loss of species and ecosystems.
And two years ago, at COP15 in Montreal, the nations of the world agreed to a new Global Biodiversity Framework, which set a goal to halt and reverse nature loss by 2030. Next week's meeting in Colombia is the first opportunity to take stock of progress towards that goal. Joining the show today to tell us more about COP16 and what's at stake is Lucía Ruiz, WWF's director for conservation areas.
Lucía will be attending the conference in Colombia next week and is going to help us understand what needs to happen and what success looks like at this important meeting.
One more note for US listeners: the United States is the only UN member state that hasn't actually ratified the Convention on Biological Diversity. And therefore, it will be attending this month's conference as an observer, rather than a party to the convention. That said even before the Global Biodiversity Framework was adopted, the US government did set its own nature target through its America the Beautiful initiative, which closely aligns with the goals being discussed at COP16.
As always, please be sure to subscribe to Nature Breaking on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Amazon Music.
And with that, let's jump into my conversation with Lucía.
Seth Larson: All right, I'm joined now by Lucía Ruiz, WWF's Director for Conservation Areas. Lucía, welcome to Nature Breaking.
Lucia Ruiz: Thank you so much for the invitation, Seth. It's a pleasure to be here today with you.
Seth Larson: Yeah, I'm so glad to have you here as well, and before we dive into CBD COP, I wanted to ask you to just start by telling our audience a little bit about yourself. And I'd love to hear what inspired your interest in nature growing up and how you came to work at WWF.
Lucia Ruiz: Okay, great, Seth. So, you're asking for my story. Here it goes. I am a very fortunate person because I come from a family deeply connected to nature. My mother grew up in a small town in the Western Pacific region of Mexico, in a state called Nayarit. And every year, Since I was a baby, we would visit her hometown, spending time with family, exploring the beach, and just immersing ourselves in the landscape.
For me, that meant eating very fresh seafood, hiking through the landscapes and learning to snorkel since I was a child. And I was always surrounded by little critters and the sound of the rain forest. And close to that small town is actually the largest wetland in Northwestern Pacific in Mexico, which is called, Marismas Nacionales, and that's where I actually found myself having the deepest connection to nature, Seth.
But I didn't grow up there. I actually grew up in Mexico City, which was a stark contrast. But my parents always gave us an incredible gift, and that's their love for, for nature. They were researchers who often took us hiking, and every weekend or whenever they were able toothy would drive us to nearby forests to Mexico City, especially to Desierto de los Leones, which was also, one of Mexico's first declared national parks, in 1917. And it was what I called our backyard forest. The backyard forest or the backyard, secret garden of Mexico, and it, it is still in many ways my safe space. So, it's a forest, it's very nearby Mexico City and I love it. And one additional thing is because of my parents' work, I remember visiting a lot of places. To many archaeological sites, many protected areas, and in particular, a very lucky trip that we had to Australia. I was immersed in so much nature and getting to know so much exotic wildlife, for us, that I realized that in those spaces, in those ecosystems, I was finding my true passion. And this is where I felt most at home, being close to nature and being close to the people who are also living their lives around nature. And around that time, it might seem a little bit corny that the movie Free Willy came out.
Seth Larson: Oh, yeah.
Lucia Ruiz: I remember saying, I want to be that person. I want to save whales. And I knew that I wanted to dedicate my life to nature, but I didn't know quite well how to do it. So, my father was just like, "Oh, that's easy. You can be an environmental lawyer."
Uh, but eventually I discovered that there was a career called biology. And just like that, I found my path, as a teenager. Just to summarize everything, I've been a very lucky person who has-been been able to explore natural places, meet incredible people, ultimately finding my passion working in nature. And after college, I was able to work, for many years in the Selva Lacandón, but also do a master's, come back to Mexico, work for the government for several years.
And now I'm here at WWF in my dream job, working with very passionate people, just like you Seth, and I am very, very lucky to have ended up here in this wonderful organization.
Seth Larson: Yeah, I love the clarity of purpose that you had as such a young person, to know that that, that this is what you wanted to dedicate your life to. To save nature, save species, and to have worked through that and, and climbed the ladder in so many different ways, and to be here now. I think that's a really inspiring story.
Okay. So, I tried to give a brief overview in my intro about what exactly the Convention on Biological Diversity is and what's at stake in this year's CBD COP. But I wonder if you can tell our listeners a little bit more about all that. You just walked us through the ins and outs of your career. You obviously know way more about this stuff than I do. I'd love for you to share a little bit with our audience about the history of the Convention on Biological Diversity, why it was created, and what's it achieved since then?
Lucia Ruiz: Excellent question. And I think that for any question as complex as this one it's very important to give a little bit of context. So, I would like to take us back in time, 50 years ago. In the late 70s and continuing into the 80s, a great global environmental movement began to emerge as a result of negative impacts that were very clear for the planet that were affecting our Earth. And examples of environmental disasters that our audience might remember including the Exxon Valdez oil spill, the most severe drought in Ethiopia, which, which toll was over 300,000 people at that time.
Dozens of cities asphyxiated by air pollution. I grew up as a kid that many times could not go into recess because the air quality was very, very bad.
Seth Larson: Sure.
Lucia Ruiz: And of course, at the end of the 1980s, Chernobyl. Just to name a few of the big environmental disasters that happened in the seventies and eighties. So, this environmental movement became stronger and pushed the United Nations to actually recognize the needs to develop international agreements to tackle environmental challenges that no single country could solve by itself or alone. And this led to the creation of key international treaties or conventions, as they are known, including the Convention on Biological Diversity, which we are referencing to today, which was adopted in 1992 at the very famous Rio Earth Summit that took place in Rio de Janeiro.
Alongside the very famous convention on climate change. And a third one, which is like the third sibling, a convention on desertification. But what you mentioned, Seth, is very important and it is right. The Convention on Biological Diversity, or CBD, as experts like to call it for short, has three objectives. Conserving species and ecosystems, ensuring sustainable use of natural resources, and then sharing the benefits of biodiversity. And what we have found is that nature really had this watershed moment with Rio.
Seth Larson: Hmm.
Lucia Ruiz: Before the Rio convention, nature was a "nice to have" to say it in a way. And after Rio, it made a turning point.it pivoted the, the interest, the agenda, on global policy with a focus on actually delivering results to protect the nature we all depend on. So, you also ask, Seth, what has it achieved in these 30 years? And the CBD has helped countries around the world, not only to expand the protected areas, of course, but to support sustainable value chains, like agroforestry, like sustainable fisheries. Also enhancing sustainable forest management, um, mobilizing funding for nature. It has raised awareness of biodiversity's importance, driven national strategies, which I will address…
Seth Larson: Yeah. We'll get there.
Lucia Ruiz: …in the future. And brought together diverse voices to tackle the challenges of biodiversity loss. So, to actually respond to that movement that began in the late 70s, late 80s. So, just to summarize again, this convention has served as a game changer to address the environmental agenda strategically, but also to draw attention to a topic we all depend on in every single activity we do every day: nature. So, Seth, you wake up and you probably brush your teeth with water, water that comes from nature. You have breakfast, which is fundamentally biodiversity: eggs, fruit, juice, those overnight oats that probably a lot of our audience love.
Seth Larson: Don't forget about coffee. That's very important.
Lucia Ruiz: Of course, it's one of the most important, not only ingredients of a whole breakfast, but of course, it is fundamental to make sure that nature protected areas and communities are acknowledged to make sure that value chains such as the coffee is maintained over time.
Seth Larson: Yeah. So, it seems like the CBD has really, in, in addition to achieving some concrete outcomes, also provides a platform for governments to interact with each other, to really talk about, what the problems are that they're facing and to figure out strategies to, to move forward as a global community. Right? I, these meetings happen every other year. We're coming up, we'll talk more about the upcoming conference shortly, but it's COP16. It's the 16th meeting. And so, the fact that these meetings happen every other year, in and of itself, can be a big deal, right? It's, it, it's a place for the people who really care about this stuff from national governments to get together and have these conversations.
Lucia Ruiz: It is very important what you are saying. And I would like to add, just to make reference to the recipes that we were talking about, breakfast. It's not only the government, but also a diversity of stakeholders who are engaging in these conversations and in these bi-annual meetings. It's, Indigenous organizations.
It's non-governmental organizations such as WWF and hundreds of others. It's also gender groups. Youth play a fundamental role. And more recently, the private sector and the finance sector are pretty much engaged and interested in how they can contribute to this nature agenda. So, all in all, it's about, of course, the government's commitments, what they are pursuing to make sure that we save nature. But also understanding that no, no government can achieve this by themselves. We need to make sure that we walk hand in hand with other stakeholders.
Seth Larson: Yeah, well, well put. So, I want to talk about the moment that this year's biodiversity conference is happening at.it seems like a really critical moment in time for the nature agenda. We know that the loss of nature is intrinsically and inextricably bound up with climate change. And the last year has really brought that to light.
We've had innumerable climate records from the hottest day, on record the hottest month on record. And on the nature side, we've seen record breaking droughts in Brazil that have really impacted communities in that region of the world that have, dried up rivers and impacted biodiversity.
And I wanted to just ask if you can talk about the context that this conference is happening in, coming up in Colombia, with all of these different challenges related to climate change and nature loss, and just talk about why it's important for this to be happening at this moment in time.
Lucia Ruiz: Seth, as many people out there probably have heard, climate change and biodiversity are two sides of the same coin. And actually, you discussed this just a few episodes ago with Dr. Stephanie Roe, focusing on the extreme heat waves and what these climate trends mean for our present and our future. I would just like to highlight that just a couple of weeks ago, also Brazil, 60% of the country's surface was on fire. So, the...
Seth Larson: Yeah, was it 60%? I didn't realize it was that much.
Lucia Ruiz: 60% of the country was under fire and I get goosebumps really, because it's not only about a specific region. We normally hear about the Amazon, or we will hear about the Pantanal. 60% of the country.
And you see the pictures and they are just you get the goose bumps; you get scared and it's just beyond what your imagination could have. So, the challenges are deeply connected. The loss of nature undermines our ability to address climate change and vice versa. Climate, the climate crisis is accelerating biodiversity loss. So, it's a very synergistic agenda, and we need to make sure that we understand that if we don't advance on the climate agenda, we won't advance on the nature one. If we fail on nature, we also fail on the climate agenda. And that's a very important fact to actually acknowledge.
So, considering the nature situation and this, very complicated relationship, inextricable synergy between climate and nature, this upcoming, Conference of the Parties, or COP, is crucial to ramp up our global ambition that protecting nature is not only about wildlife or forests. It is actually about safeguarding the ecosystems that regulate our climate, that produce our food, and most importantly, that support our livelihoods as we know them, Seth.
Seth Larson: Yeah, yeah. And I want to talk about how COP16, this next conference can help to advance some of those goals. But first, I think we should probably talk about what happened at the last CBD COP, right? Because that's important context heading into this one. So, two years ago, um, CBD COP15 in Montreal was really a watershed moment for nature in the same way that the Paris Agreement was a watershed moment for the climate movement.
Then, the outcome of that conference was that the nations of the world agreed to something called the Global Biodiversity Framework, which is kind of the nature parallel to the Paris Agreement. And so, what is the Global Biodiversity Framework and why was it such a big deal?
Lucia Ruiz: It was a very big deal, and it was again, a turning point. So Seth, I just want to share before going into the technical part of, of the story that the final negotiation to adopt the text, extended until three in the morning. So, I can still remember minute by minute...
Seth Larson: I was going to say, were you, were you there in Montreal?
Lucia Ruiz: I was there in Montreal, and we would be, Seth, like, "Oh, this is going to begin at 10:00pm. Oh, one more hour, one more hour." And it is 3:00 in the morning. And then finally, everyone, everyone sat down and the presidency of the COP, held by China during that COP, then made the announcement that they had a proposal of, of texts. Fortunately, it was agreed by 196 parties to this Convention on Biological Diversity. And it was adopted. But I think that many of us were already drained and very, very, worried that this would not happen actually. So, it was the best outcome that we could have had. And this historic agreement actually commits nations to halt and reverse nature loss by It serves as a north star to guide countries in their actions, setting very ambitious targets for conserving and restoring ecosystems, addressing the drivers of nature loss and enabling conditions to achieve this halting of biodiversity loss, ensuring as well, a human-rights-based approach.
Seth Larson: Yes.
Lucia Ruiz: I can tell you about many of the targets. Let me just make a very quick summary of some of them. One of the most significant outcomes and the one that is most well-known is the commitment to conserve 30 percent of the planet's land and ocean by 2030. It's usually known as 30x30. The framework also highlights the importance of restoration.
Uh, there are sites that have been degraded so much that we need to ensure that these sites are attended, and that we bring nature back to ensure the resilience in those sites. Other important targets addressed how unsustainable practices need to be addressed. So, there was a huge commitment to repurpose or to redesign how subsidies that are harmful to biodiversity should be supporting actually positive nature outcomes. And also, countries committed to mobilize $200 billion per year for biodiversity. So, this is very important because it's not only about the goodwill and the ambition of very well written targets. It's also about those enabling conditions. And these ambitious commitments that were made by all of these countries, now that we have this clear road map, this North Star that we are headed towards, the challenge is about implementation. So, we need to see how this overarching global framework lands into the countries, into national plans. So, COP16, which will be in just a couple of weeks, will be critical in making countries accountable on how they are advancing on implementing actually those commitments that they adhere to. COP15 was a watershed moment, Seth, as you well mentioned, because it provides us with a comprehensive plan. But now the story is about ensuring we move from the promises, the pledges that were made to actual actions. And that's where the real opportunity and, of course, huge challenge lies ahead of us into COP16.
Seth Larson: Yeah. So, let's, let's keep pulling on that thread and, and, and follow that a little further. You mentioned the 30x30 effort, and I want to talk more about what it really means to conserve 30% of the world's landscapes and seascapes. The most famous model, I think here in the US for something like that is our national park system, which protects huge areas from development and enables wildlife and natural ecosystems to thrive.
Many other countries have created similar parks. They're often called protected areas. And I, I'm curious if the 30x30 effort would focus mostly on the creation of more parks or the expansion of existing parks, or are there other models that could help attain that 30x30 goal?
Lucia Ruiz: Well, you know me, Seth, and this is my favorite topic, so I hope that I can summarize everything, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a short intervention. So, let's begin with the US and then we zoom out. The US National Park system is a very well-known model. It works very well, covering over 85 million acres. And it complements its efforts with lands managed by other agencies, including the US Fish and Wildlife Service, NOAA, the Forest Service. But globally, there are over 300 different types of protected and conserved areas.
Each one with unique levels of protection and activities allowed, depending, of course, on national contexts and needs. So, if we zoom out to this global ambition of Target 3, commonly known as 30x30, that has the objective, has the aim to ensure that by the end of this decade, 30 percent of the planet will be on some type of conservation scheme, we need to focus also not only on the numbers, but on the quality. And how are we working this hand in hand with other stakeholders? So, for our audience, perhaps Seth, I would just like to make a precision on 3 points. The first one. It's more than only parks. This 30x30 target isn't just about adding more surface, adding more protected areas, or expanding the current ones. It is about recognizing a broader range of conservation efforts. This includes, sites managed by Indigenous peoples, by local communities, but also by private sector, also by academia. These sites outside of formally declared protected areas are known as other effective area-based conservation measures, or OECMs. And they can play a key role for conservation outcomes.
So basically, it's recognizing the diversity of ways that people around the world are conserving and have conserved nature for a long time. And also ensuring that those sites can be secured from threats outside of those sites, and also ensuring that those natural and social values are recognized.
So, it's beyond, only the numbers. So, that would be my first point.
Seth Larson: Yeah, I think that's an important point. And I think it's helpful for people to understand that, yeah, it's not that the world needs to draw a line around 30 percent of the planet and say like, no one's allowed to ever go in there. It's about recognizing these existing models where people are living in balance with nature already and have been doing so for centuries and saying, okay, let's, let's help them keep doing that because that's valuable and that's something that's already happening.
Lucia Ruiz: Of course, and it's supporting those sites from external threats. But if we want to make sure that that conservation is happening, with the stakeholders that have stewarded those sites for many years, we also need to focus, and that's my second point, we need to focus on management and governance. So, as you're saying, putting a label on 30 percent and achieving the number, it's not enough. It is fundamental that protected and conserved areas are managed effectively and governed equitably, meaning that we are delivering on long term conservation outcomes and that people who are managing those sites are part of the decision making and are not just giving given a mandate,
But we also need long-term finance. And that's a very important enabling condition and if we want to deliver real conservation outcomes, well-funded protected area systems and OECMs of course, the sites outside of protected areas, need to make sure that we have sustainability of finance over time. So, as WWF, we have been working on models like the project finance for permanence, PFPs, which are a very interesting model that blends public and private funding to secure conservation in the long term. And just to make, to put an example for our audience, the PFP model in Brazil has helped to protect over 150 million acres, which is the equivalent of,1.5 times the size of California, securing both funding and policies for effective conservation. We're not only looking into the conservation of millions of hectares. We're also looking into those sites being managed and governed.
Seth Larson: Yeah. And providing the resource to do that, right? Because it's not free.
Lucia Ruiz: Exactly.
Seth Larson: So 30x30 is one of the really important goals that we're tracking heading into COP16. There are a series of other targets that were established as part of the Global Biodiversity Framework that you that you spoke to that countries are on the hook to try to, to try to tackle in their own ways. And my understanding is that all the participating countries are really supposed to come to Colombia in October with targets and plans to demonstrate how they're going to do their part towards meeting that Global Biodiversity Framework goal of halting and reversing nature loss by 2030.
But a recent WWF analysis showed that countries are actually pretty far behind in terms of doing what's needed to, to meet those targets and those, and to deliver on those action plans.
So, I'd love for you to tell us more about that process and where things currently stand heading into COP16.
Lucia Ruiz: Yes, of course, Seth. After Montreal, the focus shifted from having or ensuring that we had a very ambitious framework to actually delivering or implementing that framework.
Seth Larson: Yeah. To, to borrow what you said earlier, we established the North star, but now we have to actually follow it and get to the destination. Right?
Lucia Ruiz: Exactly. So, we have, we have the, the plan to reach the treasure, but we need to make sure that that treasure, that we have a plan to get to that treasure. So, that's why COP16, put in very simple terms. It's about accountability on implementation, implementation, implementation. And countries have spent the past two years working on revising and updating these national strategies, which are essentially roadmaps on how to get to that treasure. The treasure at the end of the rainbow is ensuring that there is a halt of biodiversity loss by 2030. Right? And so, countries committed to ambitious targets. Now they need to show how they plan to achieve those targets. And there is a diversity of approaches, of course, based on each country's capacities and each country's commitments. But we are running out of time. And we need to make sure that countries have not only the resources, but also the capacities in place and the support to translate those commitments into action. So, you were talking about this, tracker. We developed a website that was launched just a couple of weeks ago that assesses the national strategies submitted so far. So, those plans, collectively from 196 countries, should be taking us in the right direction.
Seth Larson: Yeah.
Lucia Ruiz: However, we're looking into how countries are progressing on their commitments and evaluating five key areas, Seth. Ambition, inclusivity, means of implementation, how human rights-based approaches are being addressed and how they will monitor progress in their countries.
Seth Larson: Mm hmm.
Lucia Ruiz: However, we are realizing that not all countries are able to submit their national strategies, and that not all countries are acting as swiftly as they should be. So, from WWF towards COP and during COP, one of our biggest calls to action is urging those countries who have not done so to actually submit their updated national strategies. And if there are countries who have already been able to submit them or who are a little bit more advanced in the process, we encourage as well for them to support others in doing the same.
We need to make sure that we are hand in hand, elbow to elbow to make sure that we are walking this, as a joint team. Because we cannot see some countries being left behind.
We need to make sure that everyone is supported. And we need to see well-funded, inclusive national strategies and ensure that countries are sharing challenges and collaborating to create a global movement that truly conserves biodiversity and does not stay on paper - that it actually delivers, those commitments, those promises, those pledges that are being made on paper.
Seth Larson: Yeah, so it sounds like the, the outcome, whether it's good or bad, whether it's a success or, less than successful of COP16 is really going to be measured against how countries fare in submitting these national action plans and ensuring that they're actually up to the task of adding up to that end goal of halting and reversing nature loss, right?
So, is there anything you can say about how we'll be able to determine whether this conference has been a success? How will we know at the end of this conference whether we're on the right track? Yeah.
Lucia Ruiz: That is a fundamental question, and I would say three things. First, we notice, not only with the submission of those national strategies, but that there is actually a commitment of countries to update all of the national strategies, either by the end of this year, or in the upcoming year. That would be the first point. The second point is that there is a real commitment to ensure that those $200 billion per year are not only pledged, but also committed from all sources. So, basically, financial resources from private sector, public sector, development agencies that we are able to achieve that, that target on $200 billion per year. And finally, one other thing is, and we haven't been able to touch on that a lot, Seth, but it's about inclusive conservation. How will Indigenous Peoples and local communities support be delivering on those commitments? Support, making sure that not only a whole of society approach, but also a rights-based approach is secured. We cannot think that Global Biodiversity Framework will be delivered without the help and support of actors on the field on those territories, so we need to make sure that this is seen with an inclusive, perspective and also to ensure that it is being, with respect to their human rights and to their traditional knowledge and also including that knowledge into the monitoring, for example. So, one final thing about the success of COP will also be, how are we monitoring the advances? How are we monitoring the progress of those targets we committed to two years ago?
Seth Larson: Yeah. That's a great point. Lucía, before I let you go, is there anything else you would want our audience to know about CBD COP16?
Lucia Ruiz: Yes, of course. Well, first of all, COP is taking place in Cali, Colombia, from October 21st to November 1st. So, a few fun facts about the country.
Seth Larson: Yeah.
Lucia Ruiz: Colombia is a mega diverse country, which means that they hold almost 10 percent of all biodiversity. It occupies the first place in the world in diversity of birds and orchids. So, if you love any of them, you need to visit Colombia. And we need to make sure that Colombia also has the support to keep, supporting that richness of birds and orchids. And also from a cultural perspective, besides Spanish, in Colombia 68 different ethnic languages are spoken. But also, what to expect. So, if any of our audience are attending COP, next week, over 14,000 confirmed attendees so far. Over 10 heads of states, over 100 environment ministers and over 1,000 accredited journalists. There has never been a COP, Seth, ever in the biodiversity realm with so much interest from the finance and private sector. So, it will definitely be an interesting setting to see how this evolves. And one final thing for everyone.
The theme or the topic for this COP is peace with nature, calling for an improvement of the relationship between the current economic model and the environment, as well as making reference to this complicated process Colombia has done so well in the last 30 years.
Um, so, it's really a pivotal moment for nature. It's really a huge opportunity for everyone to get engaged with the nature agenda, and it's an excellent opportunity for the world to see this COP as a milestone towards 2030. We're 5 years away, and it might seem that it's a long while, but we know how quickly,5 years go. So, we need to commit. We need to deliver, and we need to make sure that not only from civil society, but from all the sectors, throughout the world, we commit, and we make sure that we support governments.
We support stakeholders to live up to the ambition that we committed to in 2022.
Seth Larson: Yeah. That's a perfect place to end, Lucia. Thank you so much for explaining all of this to us today. It's a really complicated conference, but it's a really important one and I know you'll be heading down there yourself. Best of luck.
I look forward to hearing how everything goes.
Lucia Ruiz: Seth. Thank you so much for the space and I look forward to perhaps telling you how it went.
Seth Larson: Fantastic.
That's a wrap for today's episode. Thanks again to Lucía for helping us understand what's at stake at COP16 next week in Colombia. It's an important moment for the global effort to stem the loss of nature. And I'm grateful to know that people like Lucía will be advocating for ambitious outcomes in Cali. To our listeners, thanks for tuning in and together. Let's keep building a more sustainable future.