A Climate Scientist Explains This Year’s “Super” El Niño

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In this episode of Nature Breaking, host Seth Larson sits down with Dr. Stephanie Roe, WWF’s Global Climate and Energy Lead Scientist, to break down what’s driving this historic event and what it could mean for the months ahead. Stephanie explains the science behind El Niño, why this year’s event is on track to be the strongest ever recorded, and how a warming planet is raising the baseline for every future cycle. She also shares which ecosystems are most at risk during this cycle, from coral reefs still recovering from the worst bleaching event on record, to the anchovy fishery off the coast of Peru, to the Amazon rainforest, which scientists warn could be pushed toward a dangerous tipping point. And Seth and Stephanie discuss how countries and communities can prepare for what’s ahead.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Seth Larson: Have you heard that we're in for a super El Niño this year? Well, what does that mean? How might it affect communities or critical ecosystems that underpin our way of life? Today on Nature Breaking, WWF's lead climate scientist joins me to explain what we should expect and how we can get ready. Stay tuned.

Seth Larson: Welcome to Nature Breaking, a podcast produced by World Wildlife Fund. I'm Seth Larson. Scientists have been watching a patch of ocean in the middle of the Pacific for months now, gathering data about this year's El Niño phase, and the news isn't good. The water there has been running unusually hot. Hot enough that researchers are calling this year's El Niño the strongest in at least eighty years of record-keeping, and possibly the most powerful in centuries. That could mean a year of record-breaking temperatures and extreme weather ahead, with real consequences for people and nature.

The UN's World Food Program is already projecting that this event could push an additional 49 million people into hunger due to agricultural impacts. To help us understand what's driving this and what it might mean for the months ahead, I'm joined by Dr. Stephanie Roe, WWF's Global Climate and Energy Lead Scientist.

Stephanie was last on the show in 2024 in the middle of record-breaking heat driven by the previous El Niño cycle, and today she'll walk us through why this year's event is different, what the latest science says about the relationship between El Niño and climate change, and what it could mean for the ecosystems and communities most at risk.

Before we get started, don't forget to subscribe to Nature Breaking on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you watch or listen. And now, here's my conversation with Dr. Roe.

Stephanie Roe, welcome back to Nature Breaking. It's awesome to have you here today.

Stephanie Roe: So excited to be here. And in person, look at us...

Seth Larson: In person for the first time. Uh, I think this is your third time on the show and first time in person, so this is a lot more fun.

You're here today to talk about El Niño, and I want to just start with the big picture of it. I think most people are familiar with the term. Most of us have lived through a number of these El Niño cycles over the years, so we're kind of used to hearing about it and might have a sense of what it is. But can you just break down what the El Niño phenomenon is and what it actually means for climate and weather cycles?

Stephanie Roe: Yeah, sure. So very simply, and, and similar to what you alluded to in your introduction, El Niño really refers to warmer than normal waters in the central and eastern equatorial Pacific.

So the onset of El Niño is typically announced when, um, the sea surface temperatures in this area are about 0.5 degrees Celsius above, uh, average over a few months.

And the World Meteorological Organization, or the WMO, confirmed the onset of this El Niño, uh, about three months ago in June.

Seth Larson: Okay.

Stephanie Roe: Um, and more broadly, El Niño is the warm phase of ENSO, or ENSO is the El Niño-Southern Oscillation, and it appears about two to seven years and, and lasts about a year or so. And ENSO is a natural climate phenomenon, um, and it's the largest actual natural or reorganization of the world's weather after seasons, seasonal changes.

Seth Larson: Interesting.

Stephanie Roe: So it is, it changes the world's weather more than anything else except for, for seasonal changes. There's also a neutral phase of, of ENSO and also a cool phase of ENSO called La Niña.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: So during, uh, an El Niño event, what happens, kind of the mechanistic, uh, process that happens is that the trade winds that usually push warm weather from the East Pacific towards Asia and Australia, well, those trade winds weaken or sometimes they reverse. So that then leads to, um, to, uh, warmer waters kind of flowing or shifting towards, uh, coastal Americas, and that's replacing kind of the normally cooler and nutrient-rich waters of along the Americas with warmer water which suppresses upwelling.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: And you alluded to, you know, El Niño, we've heard about it before. Um, but it was actually coined or, uh, uh, discovered, um, in about the 1600s. So fishing communities off the coast of Peru, uh, recognized this event, um, because warmer waters negatively impacted their fish catch, and they called it El Niño de Navidad, or Christ Child, because it usually was most noticeable during, um, during Christmas. Um, so...

Seth Larson: Oh, I didn't ... You know, I, I probably learned that when I was in like junior high science class, but I, I'd forgotten the origins of the actual name.

Stephanie Roe: Yeah, and it's amazing how, I mean, how... obviously ENSO cycles have been going on for millennia, but as far as historical records show, the, at least it was noticed by, by, and coined by, by these fishermen off the coast of Peru.

Yeah. So interesting fun fact there. And then you, you talked about, you know, how does that affect weather?

Seth Larson: Right.

Stephanie Roe: Right? Well, how does a patch of warm water affect, you know, global weather cycles? Um, well, as the ocean heats up, um, it heats the atmosphere above it.

Seth Larson: Right.

Stephanie Roe: And the global winds then redistribute that heat, and then that heats up the, the, the planet. Also the, the kind of, the... that type of change reorganizes atmospheric circulation worldwide, so that shifts things like jet streams and storm tracks and, and rainfall belts, and that, of course, has a massive impact on rainfall events and extreme weather events across the world. and El Niños usually cause wetter weather, including, severe flooding and things like that off the coast of South America, parts of Southeast US, and also the Horn of Africa.

Um, it also causes drier conditions, including droughts and fires in Southeast Asia, Australia, the Amazon, and, and Southern Africa.

Seth Larson: Yeah. Yeah. I... one way I usually think of that warmer water effect on weather is how we hear about hurricanes forming and then eventually petering out. Hurricanes form in warmer... and build strength in, in warmer tropical waters, and we always, you know, the, the typical path is, at least where I live on the East Coast of the US, we'll be tracking hurricanes in the Caribbean, and as they come up to Florida and along the East Coast, they tend to lose strength as they get into colder water in the mid-Atlantic and the Northeast.

Um, so it's always made a lot of sense to me just from observing that and hearing about that every year, that, uh, warmer water in the Pacific on a big scale differing year over year would have a big impact on, on global weather, weather patterns. I want to get more into some of the, like, practical implications of this year's El Niño with you

in a few minutes, but first I, I, I just have, like, a... um, kind of a timing and staging question about what to expect in the months to come. Because the last time I talked to you on this podcast, it was in 2024, and I think we were on the tail end of the last El Niño cycle, which really revved up in 2023 and led to really record temperatures around the globe and a lot of extreme weather throughout the first half of 2024.

And I wanted to ask if that's kind of the same cycle we should expect with this El Niño because I know the El Niño phenomenon is expected to peak this fall or maybe in December, but should we expect the actual on-the-ground practical fallout and extreme weather implications to hit home more in 2027?

Stephanie Roe: Yeah. That's a, that's a great question because I remember the last time I was here, I was on ... It was, I believe, in May or June.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: And it was the year after the onset of, of that El Niño. Yeah. Um, so it was 2024. And here we have the onset of El Niño happen in June, right? And it's now September. So it's supposed to peak by the end of the year. Again, if you remember the, the, the fun fact of, of the Christmas child.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: You know, so it's supposed to peak in November, December, January, and then yes, a bulk of, of the impacts probably that we're going to see, um, including kind of the record temperatures are going to probably be, uh, unfolding in the next year.

Seth Larson: Gotcha.

Stephanie Roe: So there is some nuance to that though because, um, you know, the lagged response is kind of well documented because it takes time for the ocean to, to heat and to fully mix into the atmosphere and for those cascading effects, right, to, and impacts to unfold. So things like droughts causing then reduced harvests and depleted water tables and disease outbreaks.

So these things kind of ... You see the cascading effects of that usually in the years later, or sorry, in the, in the year later after the onset of El Niño. But I will say that, um, uh, you know, effects are not confined to a single calendar year. Yeah. So even though we're going to probably see the, the largest impacts in 2027, we're already seeing impacts, you know, from El Niño this year including, you know, really severe heat waves in, in, in Europe and, and in the US.

We're already seeing droughts, major droughts in India and East Africa, um, and in Central America. Um, there's severe storms in the Eastern Pacific including most recently in Hawaii. So we are starting to see impacts this year and you are likely going to see impacts kind of in the coming months ramp up but we are expecting record temperatures probably the warmest year on record again, you know, since 2024 to, to happen in 2027.

Seth Larson: Yeah. Okay. Something for us to all kind of get ready for. I particularly wanted to devote an episode to the El Niño cycle this year because this is not your average El Niño, right? Uh, scientists have been predicting for months that this will likely become a super El Niño, and actually it just was reported a couple days ago, I think, as we're recording this, that this El Niño has now crossed that threshold into super El Niño territory.

And that sounds bad to me. Um... but I'd love for you to explain kind of the practical differences between a regular El Niño, "regular" I say, uh, in air quotes, versus a super El Niño. I, I'm guessing the impacts will be much more severe, but can you just walk us through the scientific definition of super versus a regular El Niño but also, like, what is that actually going to mean for people?

Stephanie Roe: Super not good. Super meaning...

Seth Larson: Right, bigger ...

Stephanie Roe: Bigger. Yeah. Yeah. Important. But so El Niños are categorized as, as super when the sea surface temperature anomalies are above two degrees Celsius.

Seth Larson: Okay.

Stephanie Roe: Um, so there's been three super El Niños, uh, since records began back in the 1950s, one in '82-'83, one in '97-'98, and the other one in 2015 and '16. Um, and all of those had temperatures... sea surface temperature anomalies between two and three degrees Celsius above average temperatures. And this is, this is important because, you know, these super El Niños created havoc across the world. So the '97, '98 El Niño was often called, like, the climate event of the 20th century. It triggered catastrophic flooding in Peru and Ecuador that killed, you know, hundreds of people, fueled massive peatland fires in Indonesia, um, that blanketed basically the entire region, southeast Asia, but also beyond in a haze, and it caused, um, respiratory problems for over 20 million people.

Seth Larson: Wow.

Stephanie Roe: Um, it was estimated to have caused about 23,000, uh, deaths worldwide. Um, and then the 2015 and 2016 El Niño triggered the worst coral bleaching event on record. Um, more than about 75% of the world's coral reefs, um, were exposed to bleaching, and about a third of them died. Um, it also had Ethiopia's worst drought in five decades, and it pushed about 40 million people into, um, severe food insecurity, and so these things have massive, massive impacts.

And this El Niño is really alarming because scientists are, um, um, for the first time predicting anomaly temperatures that go well beyond three degrees Celsius.

Seth Larson: Yeah, I've read this.

Stephanie Roe: And some models are even predicting over four degrees Celsius in sea surface temperature anomalies.

That's why you're hearing crazy names like Godzilla El Niño or- ... whatever. You know, there's no category for the El Niño that we're predicting to occur right now. And the reason why they're predicting such a... such a large El Niño is because of the scale and pace at which it's, it's happening.

Seth Larson: Wow.

Stephanie Roe: Um, and so it's going to be one that is by far the, the, the largest, um, El Niño that we've experienced. And then I would say too is to remind, you know, listeners that El Niños are occurring on a warmer and warmer planet...

Seth Larson: Yeah...

Stephanie Roe: ...due to climate change.

Seth Larson: The baseline is getting higher, right?

Stephanie Roe: That's right. Yeah. That's right. So our planet today is already about 1.4 degrees Celsius warmer than it was during pre-industrial times. Um, and El Niños usually add about .02 degrees Celsius to, to whatever baseline you have. And so if you're at one degree, then you would expect on an El Niño year it would be 1.2. Right now we're at 1.4. We expect it to be 1.6, and actually some of the predictions show that it's going to go up to 1.7. So it's actually going to go .3 degrees, um, above the baseline.

And so it's a, a baseline that then continues to go up every year and every cycle of the El Niño, um, phase. And so to put that into perspective, the La Niña cold phase in, in the last year...

Seth Larson: Mm-hmm ...

Stephanie Roe: ...was warmer than the El Niño warm phase in 1998... '97-'98 in that, in that Super El Niño then.

Seth Larson: Oh my gosh. Yeah. That is wild to think about.

Stephanie Roe: Yeah, and I mean, in, in some ways, you know, El Niños can bring... Not some ways. We know that El Niños can bring devastating impacts, right, um, on their own, but it's now happening on a much warmer planet, and this really increases the likelihood that these really extreme events, droughts, floods, uh, fires, will push communities and ecosystems beyond anything that, that we've ever experienced.

Seth Larson: So I want to ask you a little more about this interplay between climate change and El Niño, because like you just said, they, they aren't happening in vacuums. They're both happening together at the same time, and climate change is raising that baseline for the effects of El Niño. Um, do we know anything about whether climate change is also contributing to El Niños themselves being stronger or happening more frequently, or is it that they're happening separately but kind of, um, uh, conflating each other?

Stephanie Roe: Mm. Yeah, that's a really active area of research right now in the scientific community and the climate community. Um, it was actually a, a recent study that was published in science, uh, this year. It reconstructed El Niño strength, uh, going back about 1,000 years using coral records. Hm. Um, and it found that El Niño events over the last 40 years are about 40% stronger than they were in the preindustrial era.

Seth Larson: Interesting.

Stephanie Roe: So that does show you some indication that El Niños are getting stronger. Um, but it's still not settled science by any means. Yeah. Um, so I think that, yeah, this is a really active area of research. The frequency question is much more of a question mark. We don't, we don't know if... we don't know one way or the other if it is increasing the frequency of El Niños.

Um, you know, they're still occurring kind of on this two to seven-year, uh, cycle. But there is growing evidence, um, that extreme El Niños could double in frequency potentially under... under scenarios above 1.5 degrees, um, above preindustrial. Uh, so I'd say that El Niño and climate change are, are separate phenomena. Um, but climate change is increasingly acting like an amplifier, right? Um, I think that the intensity question is there's more, there's, there's more evidence there, and the frequency question, there's less evidence there. But, um, but anyway, it's, it's something that we're, we're actively monitoring.

Seth Larson: Yeah. Okay. Um, I want to bring us back to kind of WWF's roots since we're here at the World Wildlife Fund. Um, we are predominantly known for our work protecting species and ecosystems around the world from all kinds of threats, whether that's poaching or climate change. Are there any... as you sort of look out at what the science is predicting and you think about how that could have impacts around the world, are there any particular species or places that you're particularly concerned about having a harder time during this El Niño cycle?

Stephanie Roe: Yes. I think probably coral reefs are the most top of mind for me. Yeah. Coral reefs are, hugely impacted by El Niños. We have experienced a match... a mass bleaching event with every El Niño since the '90s. Wow. And, um, and we just came out of the worst bleaching event on record. About 84% of the world's reef area was exposed to bleaching between 2023 and 2025.

And so this El Niño kind of stacking up on top of that before those reefs really have much time to recover, um, you know, could really put them under severe stress to a point where many of them don't recover.

Seth Larson: Wow.

Stephanie Roe: Uh, so that, that's very front of mind for me. I'm an active, um, and very passionate scuba diver and love corals, and it's just, uh...

It's something that, that when you look at the impacts of climate change, you know, climate change is already putting corals at, at stress. And so you're already... Imagine, you know, having a, a fever, right? You're already running a fever, and these corals are already stressed, and then you put, like, a massive pulse event like this on top of them that creates even more stress, and that's, uh, that's really, um, concerning.

Um, another one that is probably, the most impactful in terms of communities as well is really the ecosystem off the coast of Peru. It's home to the world's kind of single largest, uh, uh, single species fishery: the anchovies.

Seth Larson: Mm.

Stephanie Roe: And it's already seeing those quotas slashed, um, significantly. And of course, that ripples out not just because humans rely on anchovies for, for food, but also sea birds and seals and sea lions, and, you know, the whole food web that relies on, on that ecosystem, uh, gets put at risk.

Um, and then I would say that the, the third one that I'll mention, maybe the last... there's many I think I'm concerned about. But probably, um, the one that is probably the most close to home and for our audiences is the Amazon.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: Um, the last El Niño, uh, it created the most severe droughts, um, and fires that the basin had ever seen.

Um, and, you know, again, it's already a system that's under severe stress, both from climate change but also from, from deforestation, degradation. And there was a paper that was published, I think, just last month, um, in Nature that said that, that this El Niño stress could really put the Amazon basin on the brink of this tipping point that everyone keeps talking about. The Amazon tipping point. Which is the tipping point from, from, uh, a rainforest to, uh, a drier, ecosystem.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: And, and so we, we are actively looking and monitoring that. I think what's the good news is, even though, you know, these things are really concerning, I just came out of, um, a WWF, uh, presentation last week where all of the... directors and, and, and country offices from South America were presenting on, on how they were preparing for this El Niño, and, and so it's front of mind on a lot of people, and we're trying our best to, to prepare for it, to anticipate impacts, and to hopefully enhance resilience where we can.

Seth Larson: Yeah. Okay. So going forward into the next year or so, we're going to keep a close eye on temperatures around the globe and, and sort of local weather impacts for people everywhere, but in particular, keeping a close eye on those corals, the anchovy fishery, and, and the food web system off of Peru and the Amazon rainforest.

Is there anything that either individuals or, or communities or governments should be thinking about doing proactively now to actually be ready for the effects of this El Niño cycle?

Stephanie Roe: Well, governments or communities are very well aware if they have been impacted in the past by El Niños or other extreme weather events, um, they're very well aware of the things that they probably need to do. Yeah. And so there are a lot of regions in the world that are actively preparing. They're stockpiling food, uh, supplies.

They are, um, trying to figure out, you know, ways in which to conserve water, uh, in places that are going to be hit by drought, for example. Um, and they're putting in place, for example, early warning systems so that they can, they can, um, notify communities and people, um, if they need to evacuate. And then of course, preventative measures like making sure that there's no fuel.

You're not adding additional fuel. You're not creating- Yeah ... fires in places where there might be fire risk. Yeah. Um, and, and then of course, in places where you are expecting, uh, wetter conditions, I think that there's a lot of things also from, from an agricultural perspective that they're trying to do more proactively.

So there's a lot of work to be done at, at all levels. I think that a lot of the major planning needs to, needs to fall on the countries and regional governments. And, um, it's also important to note that, you know, disaster preparedness is a, is a science, right? Yeah. In many ways. Like we, we've been preparing for disasters for a long time, and there's a lot of people that, that do this, you know, as they have an expertise in this, in this realm.

And one of the main things that you need to do is really mainstream disaster preparedness, right? You're not, you're not preparing for each El Niño as if it was a one-off event.

Seth Larson: Right.

Stephanie Roe: You are building the, the foundation for which you're able to respond more actively, um, and, and, and more quickly and more comprehensively. And so hopefully countries are... have that foundation and are building upon it because, you know, these things, especially like I said earlier, the impacts of, of this El Niño is probably going to push us beyond things that we've maybe experienced in the past. And, um, and it's difficult to prepare for things that you haven't seen in the past.

Seth Larson: Yep.

Stephanie Roe: So it's, it's a difficult question in that sense, but I, I feel like, you know, you can't, you can't be prepared enough.

Seth Larson: Pausing on El Niño talk for a minute, I wanted to just take a m- a moment while I have you here to kind of get a, a check-in on climate science more generally.

I know you, in past years, have been a part of the IPCC, uh, process for the, uh, reports that come out every handful of years from... It's the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Uh, produces the most authoritative climate science reports that we have. Um, you were a lead author on the report that came out a few years ago.

You're working with colleagues on the next cycle of those reports now. Um, I don't know if there's anything from that process that you would like to talk about or anything else from your work that's really got you interested and excited right now?

Stephanie Roe: Yeah, so I'm a, I'm a lead author in the, in the seventh assessment cycle of the IPCC, and that kicked off in December of last year. And we are now actively in draft mode, where we're going to develop or hand over kind of the first draft for expert review, uh, by the end of October. Um, it's, it's really... So I'm focused on looking at, uh, mitigation in the land sector. So the land sector is really everything in the terrestrial biosphere.

Yep. Um, forests, uh, mangroves, uh, coastal wetlands as well, peatlands, uh, agricultural lands, et cetera. And so, uh, looking at how those can contribute to mitigating climate change, but also how, uh, future climate change is affecting the way those, those systems can mitigate climate change or can provide benefits, other ecosystem services.

Seth Larson: Gotcha.

Stephanie Roe: It is trying to look at how nature-based solutions, for example, in general, um, are being deployed. How, how, where and, and where and in what conditions do they work? And, and where and what conditions do they not work as well? Um, how can we scale those up? Um, how is future climate change going to impact that? And being able to take advantage of the, you know, the, the, the most recent science that's been done and assessing that together I think is going to be really great, even, you know, for the work that we do at WWF.

One of the things that's new also in this IPCC... IPCC cycle is that, um, we are going to have a chapter on tipping points which we never had before. Um, and there's also going to be, um, new indicators on, on adaptation and resilience, which I think is a big thing for us right now also at WWF, but also for the nature community to understand, you know, how, how can we make ecosystems and the work that we do more resilient.

Seth Larson: Yeah. And do you know when those reports are going to start rolling out to the public? I know it's a years-long process and, uh...

Stephanie Roe: yes, it's a many years-long process. So it, it started last December, and it's going to continue until... so there are special reports that are going to be coming out next year. There's a special report on cities that are coming out, and then there's a special report, it's a methodological report on carbon dioxide removal.

Um, but the assessment reports, the big assessment reports, the ones that I'm working on, are not going to be ready until 2028 to 2029. Um, but what's exciting is that that's actually occurring at the same time as the, as, as the IPBES, so the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform for Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services, I believe... is what it's called. Woo.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: Uh, so it's kind of the sister panel for the, the Convention on Biological Diversity...

Seth Larson: And this was the panel, they, they put a, a hugely impactful study out, mm, six or seven years ago that got a lot of headlines because I think it predicted that upwards of a million species were at risk of extinction. And so that's the, the report that a lot of people might remember, and we're going to the next cycle of that now.

Stephanie Roe: Yes. Yeah. They're working… And, and this is the first time that the global... both global assessments are happening at the same time. And so I actually just attended, uh, an expert workshop with, with authors from both of these assessments where we are trying to understand, you know, how we can look at, you know, evidence bases or think about how we integrate these two things more, uh, in a, in a more coherent way.

Um, especially looking at, one of the things that I look at are scenarios. Like, so when we talk about scenarios in the future, how... are there ways in which we, we deploy interventions that can meet goals under the UN Convention on Climate Change, but also under the UN Convention on Biological Diversity, but also the one on desertification?

So these three UN conventions, are there, are there interventions that are integrated that can deliver across, across these things? And not to mention, of course, the, the, the sustainable development goals. So I feel like the integrated approach is really exciting. Um, I think that all the new science in general, you know, that's coming out is exciting, including this one on, on El Niño.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: Yeah.

Seth Larson: All right. Well, um, we've talked a lot about some heavy topics today. I'll, I'll try to end us on a positive note. Aside from what you just spoke about regarding the... those two scientific uh, report processes, is there anything else that's really making you hopeful in the climate science space right now?

Stephanie Roe: Yeah, and while I think... thanks for that question, because while I think it's important to be clear-eyed about, you know, the changes in the climate system and the challenges and impacts that they, um, that they are going to create, um, and that the fact that we need to continue to push for deep and sustained emission reductions, um, we need to remind ourselves of the progress that we're making, and so that we're being able to learn from and really try to lean into, uh, the successes, right?

Yeah. And figure out how, how to scale them up. So I'm really inspired by, um, the recent trends in the renewable energy transition.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: Last year, renewables overtook coal, uh, in the global electricity mix for the first time in the modern era.

Seth Larson: It's amazing, yeah.

Stephanie Roe: Uh, the global renewable energy generation growth really accelerated, you know, to its fastest pace ever. I mean, I think last year or this year, um, half of all cars sold in China and some parts of, of Southeast Asia, um, are, you know, are EVs. Um, and the cost of solutions, climate solutions like batteries and, and wind and especially solar now make renewable energy deployment so much cheaper than fossil fuels in virtually all places on the planet.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: And so that's a structural change.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Stephanie Roe: Right? And, and it's an accelerating trend, and it's going, um... or it's happening even against these kind of geopolitical headwinds that we're facing. So I find that to be hugely inspiring and, and, and it gives me hope every day. I'm hopeful that, you know, we're scaling these tool... like, we have the tools that we need, and they're scaling faster than almost anyone predicted, you know, even five years ago.

So I, I know that it's not as fast as we need, but if we weren't predicting even five years ago what we're achieving today, then I'm hopeful for what we can achieve in the next five years.

Seth Larson: Yeah. Love that. Well, let's leave it on that positive note right there. Stephanie, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time, and thanks for walking us through all these really complicated questions around El Niño and climate change.

Stephanie Roe: Thanks for having me. This was fun.

Seth Larson: Okay, that's a wrap for today's episode. My thanks again to Dr. Stephanie Roe for taking the time to walk us through this topic. It seems clear that this year's El Nino will be causing all sorts of consequences for nature and communities for months to come, so it was really helpful to hear from her about what to expect and how to prepare. I hope you found this episode helpful, and if you did, please give us a like on YouTube or on your podcast app of choice.

For now, thank you for listening, and together, let's keep building a more sustainable future.