A Future Without Plastic Pollution

TRANSCRIPT:

Seth Larson: This is Nature Breaking, and this is a three-part series on the plastic pollution crisis. Before we get started, Erin, I have to take a sip of my coffee. And I have a question for you.

Erin Simon: Hit me.

Seth Larson: Can I recycle this plastic iced coffee cup?

Erin Simon: All right, well, first of all, always drink the coffee first. Total waste of water and coffee- if you don't. But paper straw, not recyclable, but that's okay. The lid and the cup, both of them are PET. Both of them are the same material that your common water bottle or pop bottle would come in. That said, they're both in different formats. The lid is the least likely of the two of those to be recyclable. The cup should be more recyclable. Interesting. I always advise if it is not a typical bottle format to just check that sticker that comes on your bin or with your recycling information and verify, but always rinse them first.

One follow-up question. I have a paper straw in this today. If I had a plastic straw, could that be recycled?

Erin Simon: Absolutely not. Plastic straws are also not recyclable, they're just too tiny. If I was to have my druthers, I would say just bring a reusable cup and get your coffee in that.

Seth Larson: All right.

Seth Larson: I'm Seth Larson

Erin Simon: And I'm Erin Simon

Seth Larson: And this is Nature Breaking, a podcast from World Wildlife Fund, and today is part three of Unwrapped, the Plastic Crisis, our three-part miniseries about the past, present, and future of the plastic pollution situation.

Erin Simon: Situation. That's right. And in this episode, we're going to look ahead, right? We're going to step back from the discussion we've been having about how we got here and where things stand today, and really focus on if we got this right, what's that future we could build?

Seth Larson: Yeah. All right, let's get into it All right, Erin. So we've spent the last two episodes unpacking the history of the plastic pollution crisis and the present reality of what some companies and others are trying to do about it, and it can all feel a little overwhelming.

Erin Simon: Yeah. Yeah, it really can. And I mean, when you see plastic pollution everywhere, it's on our sidewalks, it's in our playgrounds, it's in our oceans, it's in our food systems...

Seth Larson: Yeah

Erin Simon: ...we're finding it's even in our bodies, it can make you feel like the problem is too big to solve.

Seth Larson: Yeah. But today's conversation is really trying to get at the other side of that and communicate that it's not too big to solve. There are things we can do, and some of those things are taking shape already.

Erin Simon: Yeah. I think one of the most important things to understand is that there's no single fix, right? It's not going to be solved by one new material or one policy. It's going to take a combination of those innovations, better systems, smarter choices, smarter policies, and people pushing that change at every level. But beyond all of that, it's going to take a hope and willingness from those actors, yeah ... to do so.

Seth Larson: Absolutely. The people piece of it is really important because this is, as you just said, this is not just a technical or policy challenge, it's a communications challenge. And how do you help more people understand the problem, but also, just as importantly, how do you empower them to feel like they can be a part of the solution?

Erin Simon: Yeah, that's exactly right. When people are excited and when people know what they can do and it's easy for them to take action, I find that they really take that opportunity. And so I'm pretty excited about today's guest.

Seth Larson: Yeah, me too. So we spoke to Carissa Cabrera, who's a marine biologist, a climate activist, and the CEO of FutureSwell. She's also built a massive audience on social media by making ocean and climate issues more accessible, and importantly for our conversation, more actionable for a whole new generation.

Erin Simon: Yeah. I think Carissa's just going to bring a really important perspective to this conversation. She's not just working on solutions. She's helping how people understand those issues, understand the opportunities, and she is making sure that they see themselves in those solutions, and that's really important.

Seth Larson: Well, I hope everyone takes a brief moment to like this episode and subscribe to Nature Breaking on their podcast app of choice before we get into our conversation. And now we're going to hear from Carissa Cabrera.

Okay, Carissa Cabrera and Erin Simon, it's great to be with you both today. Welcome to Nature Breaking.

Carissa Cabrera: Thanks for being here, guys. I'm excited for this conversation.

Erin Simon: Excited to have it. Thanks for joining us.

Seth Larson: So Erin, I'm going to turn things over to you in a couple minutes. But first, I wanna talk to you about your origins and get back to the beginning of your story. You moved to Hawaii for grad school, I think, and you spent time working on endangered species conservation and studying marine mammal strandings, and now you've built a whole platform around bringing ocean climate solutions to the masses. So I wanted to ask if there was a moment or a thread that sort of connected all those worlds for you.

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah, I think that probably many people on your team and many people tuning in to podcasts like this one feel like they love and care for animals and nature, and that's exactly how I was growing up. It's why I wanted to study the ocean. My whole life, I just wanted to answer questions about the natural world, and I knew that in order to answer those questions, I wanted to pursue higher education. Something I don't always lead with is that I was really trying to get into graduate school in a different state, actually, and Hawaii just happened to me. And so I had never been here before, and I didn't understand, how profound moving to a place like this would impact my conservation journey. So I wanted to answer questions about cetacean strandings. I wanted to understand what was impacting their health. I wanted to understand disease. But when I started actually working in it in practice during my master's, I realized that so many people just didn't even understand the threats facing the ocean or dolphins and whales, right? And we had to break out of that echo chamber. If we were going to get people to care at all, they had to at least know what was going on. Hawaii's really uniquely situated in a current system that brings a lot of marine debris onto our coastlines, and so...

Seth Larson: Yeah

Carissa Cabrera: ... it's unignorable here. But in places where currents aren't bringing plastic onto your coastlines, it can be easy to forget that this is a huge problem impacting not just ocean health, but also human health.

Erin Simon: I think it's really interesting that we can have plastic everywhere, and at times it's still hard to explain to people why it's there, and how it got there, and what to do about it. And I see that you have built this really powerful platform around making ocean conservation more accessible to everyone. I mean, not just scientists or policy people, right? When it comes to plastic pollution specifically, I think you've done a really great job at making that something that everybody can feel engaged with and take action on. So I'm wondering, if you can tell us a little bit about some of the stories or messages, or even messengers who have, have you s- that you've seen an actual shift when they are the ones giving the message or when certain messages are landing, right? What makes the difference, right, between content that inspires and then content that just sort of, doesn't land or flops?

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah. I think that you're so right that it requires this huge diversity of messaging to resonate with different people. I mean, what motivates me might not motivate either of you. It might require totally different approaches. And what I feel like when I was drawing those connections in graduate school, I knew what was motivating me, think seeing an animal in distress or seeing fishing net in a dolphin or whale's stomach. That was, extremely impactful to me to be part of solutions. But maybe someone who grew up a little more disconnected to animals might not feel that same reaction. And so it's up to us as messengers to figure out what would be the most effective message, and I think that's one of the reasons why I'm always encouraging people to give their time to building their own platform because I only resonate with a certain small niche group when I talk about plastic. I might resonate with people who look like me or who have a similar lived experience to me or who are also really connected to animals, but a different messenger is going to resonate with a different audience, and that's just who the messenger is. But then there's also how you're approaching it. I feel like right now we're in this amazing moment with plastic where people are really drawing some strong connections between human health impacts, and that's, I think, really going to break into people who care about their family's health, moms who have kids, young kids, or, kid- or people my age who are maybe pursuing growing families or considering how to grow families. And I think that angle, too, is a new and emerging messaging thread that we can nurture and stand up and draw connections to. So I wish there was, like, a silver bullet message that I could give you, Erin, of what's going to work and what's going to land with people, but it totally varies. And when you're talking to policymakers, one of the best things I learned actually from World Wildlife Fund is that it's really important to understand who they are and their motivators 'cause that might be totally different in one region than the other. And we saw that when I joined a number of years ago for a lobby day on marine debris and plastic pollution, and we saw that water was such a connective piece for a certain region we were meeting in, and talking about plastic being in water was a huge motivator for them that rang alarm bells. And that might not be the same in a totally different state.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

I have a follow up question on this. I'm curious, Carissa, from the content that you create, I know you create a lot of digital-first content focused on TikTok and Instagram. I'm wondering if there's a piece of content you've created in this space that you felt broke through in a really interesting or unexpected way, and what do you think it was about that worked?

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah, that's a great question, Seth. I think that because I've been doing this for a number of years, I kind of know what pieces of content will be seen by many people or potentially go viral. And with... in the plastic world, it's the vast concentration of microplastics that are on our beaches here in Hawaii. We know it's just very visually unignorable. And when I post a video, there was one a year or two ago where I'm, like, just digging in the sand, and it won't stop coming up, and that... that is the reality of our beaches on the side of the island that I live on. And so I think people will engage with the content because they're either in disbelief. There's a lotta doubt. People accuse me of putting the plastic there for views and virality, which is hilarious. And there's also just a lot of shock and awe at the scale of the problem because, like we talked about, it's not like that in every coastline because of the current systems. And so we... I know that if I'm going to talk about plastic pollution, it's really important that I show visually the scale of the problem and how it is really just breaking up into smaller and smaller pieces and in our environment, and we can see it on even a day with light winds or light swell. You see it all on our coastlines.

Erin Simon: I will just build and say that what I hear you talking about and thinking about, whether it's the right content or the messages, is that we... this like leading with empathy and understanding where the different stakeholders are at. What is amazing and equally upsetting with plastic is the pervasiveness of it means that it does touch everybody and if you can find those different ways that it impacts folks there's a an entry point for having a really good conversation about what each of our roles can be in addressing it. So Seth, I'll hand it back to you.

Seth Larson: Thanks, Erin. Yeah, no, I, really appreciate those answers, and I think that ties in pretty directly to what my next question was going to be, which is really what you just said, Carissa, about how those really visceral, kind of sad and upsetting videos of just how much plastic there is and how big the problem is, those are what grab people's attention.

And I think one of the hardest things in this space is that we have to hold two truths in our minds at once, and one is that plastic is this really serious accelerating problem. It can be really upsetting to see in these pristine environments. And then the other is that there are these real solutions that are worth fighting for. So as someone who communicates every day with a general audience, how do you walk that line of keeping people motivated and hopeful while still underscoring the urgency of the problem?

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah. It's really hard. I wanna say that because I think that we're... we do carry as conservation practitioners and environmentalists the weight of the work that we work in, and understanding the nuance and how heavy the problems can be. And I think that when you're telling others about it, you might have a number of out... ideal outcomes that you want, right? For me, I want more people to feel like they can be involved in solutions. I want people to feel like there aren't barriers to that involvement, and I want them to feel like the solutions already exist. The good news is the solutions do already exist, so I try to always lead in some way. Maybe it starts with some shock factor of the scale of the plastic crisis. But at some point, in the content, whether it be the caption or later on in the video, there has to be a connection to something that's motivating through hope and solution orientation. Because that's when people check out, is when they feel like they can't... there's nothing to do, right? And that's when I check out. But other motivators, especially for my community, 'cause I feel like I have been really spending the last year or two trying to get to know them, is some people are motivated by urgency and, in some cases, like shame is a motivator for some. But a lot of people are motivated by belonging and collectivism and the ability that the future that we want is in reach. And so I know that's true from my experience working on these solutions, so I try to always just share, " Well, this is what worked in this area. We can just adapt it for our place with our own community needs." Or, "Look at all these thousands of people that are going to negotiate on the plastics treaty. They're all showing up for this next phase of this agreement, and we can support them in this way." And so to really show that there are leaders and that we need more people to come in and support. Because I think that I hear, especially from young, early career environmentalists, "I don't have the expertise to participate in the solutions."

But there are leaders, and we can support them as we still learn and navigate how to best show up. And...

Erin Simon: 100%.

Carissa Cabrera: There's all these different roles. So I try to always, I try to always bring it back to that. And for me, I really am motivated by collectivism and belonging, so I try to lead with that as well in my messaging because it is a community that is fighting for a livable future.

Seth Larson: Yeah. I think seeing part... seeing ourselves as part of a collective and not just as these isolated actors who are struggling against this vast tide of, of difficult problems makes us all feel a lot more empowered and...

Carissa Cabrera: Mm-hmm.

Seth Larson: ...leads to a lot more change.

Carissa Cabrera: It does.

Erin Simon: Yeah. Yeah, I think I was talking earlier about without hope nobody tries And so...

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah.

Erin Simon: ...Leading with that and making the case for us having ideas and solutions is it's really important to sure we get up in the morning and keep doing the hard work even when it feels like it's slow. So you were talking a little bit as you were giving examples of different where places that work is happening right. So we've got grassroots stuff and we've got solutions that are happening in corporate... with corporates. And we've got the treaty. And I would say a lot of the role that I see for myself and for WWF is to make sure that the folks who are responsible for the crisis that we're in --businesses and government leaders -- that they are putting into place the right policies and actions that are the enabling conditions that really enable the grassroots activities to emerge and to be successful. You work closely with a lot of these communities. You're trying to build community as you said with them particularly in Hawaii. What activities or successes have you seen lately that are giving you hope? And is there... are there pieces that you... are there successes or stories that you are seeing that you feel like it's important for us to make sure we are bridging and bringing to those negotiators or bringing to those businesses so they see that they we start to build a community between all of those folks?

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah. I think you, you make a really important point that I hope all changemakers take away, which is that kind of we need engagement at every single level. And what I learned with world Wildlife Fund doing plastic pollution education and advocacy, was I remember sitting in a meeting, with like I think we called ourselves like the coastal delegation 'cause we were coastal states, and we were say... we were being shared with... by a staffer, "Well, this is only going to take root at the federal level once we see more of a groundswell of this being taken place at a local level," 'cause it's a proxy for showing how much demand from the public is unified. And that made me feel so empowered to go back and work on local solutions because it is a step to federal change, which is then a step to global change. And so, specifically here in Hawaii, I feel so honored and privileged to be able to work here because there is such a shared agreement that the environment is something to care for.

We don't have to get people to that starting point. They're already there, it doesn't... that work is already done, which is a great, beginning point for a marathon. So some things that have really inspired me here is... we passed one of the first single-use plastic bans, I think in 2019, called Bill 40, that drew out single-use plastic from takeout. And now actually when you go anywhere, you have to request, it's like by request only for a fork or a spoon that's made of plastic. And then... but what I've learned through that process, 'cause that was right when I was in graduate school that I was watching that happen as a student, is that enforcement is so key. 'Because right now, even though that was passed at a local level, outreach to businesses could be strengthened. And so we're seeing that it can sometimes get lost in training or lost in translation or not uniformly understood by the general public. And so knowing that we have big wins, but the work always continues to make it as strong as possible, is something I think about. That gives me so much hope that we were an environmental leader in that way with single-use plastic. But I also think that when we're talking to decision-makers in boardrooms or negotiating rooms, they need to know the moments that we can still take steps forward, 'cause we're not ever done, if that makes sense.

Erin Simon: It totally does. And the number of states that have got extended producer responsibility since we were having those conversations and having that lobby day we are at seven states today.

Carissa Cabrera: Wow.

Erin Simon: And similar to bans, they're imperfect in their implementation. The capacity building and behavior change that goes with that is a really... it's a really, it's an ongoing challenge. But a lot about what we need to harmonize moving forward, what we need to... what support states need because you're right with all of these bans that education is important. I will be honest last night I was grocery shopping and we have in Virginia a law that says you can't have single-use plastic bags. You have to pay. We're bagging with our reusable bags and I watch him take a like a single-use bag and put like the leftover stuff in it and I was like Oh... No need. "No big deal I'll give it to you free." I was like, "No I just want it." But I was like you're not allowed to give it to me for free. The point is I should have to pay for it if I want it. But it was this moment where I was like...

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah.

Erin Simon: It's building on all of those things and learning and helping people see that they can make choices and make different choices and so. But it's really powerful.

I think you both just spoke really wonderfully about different approaches to moving the ball forward and advocacy and some of these things. I wanna talk about sort of widening the aperture a little bit and reaching people outside of our traditional environmental bubbles.

Seth Larson: I think when it comes to plastic and ocean health, a lot of us do live in these silos. We live and breathe this stuff all the time. We care a lot about it, but we're not going to achieve anything unless we mobilize people who don't consider themselves an environmentalist or don't consume cli- climate content all the time.

So Carissa, what do you find that works to reach those people who are outside of our environmental bubble? And what have you done that has connected with that group in the past?

Carissa Cabrera: The first thing I wanna say is that one of the reasons I'm so passionate about digital media and social media content as part of this is because I've... I see social media referred to as the town square, where conversations and culture are shaped and perspectives and opinions are shaped. And when you think about how people interpret and perceive issues, it can be shaped really strongly by influencers or people who do have platforms on social media. So when I think about moving the mark and narrative on a certain of these ocean climate issues, I think about how different messengers might meet different people. I think that my algorithms, my world on social media, there's a lot of ways to live healthier lifestyles. There's lots of sustainability tips and tricks, and I think that, moms have a really important role to play in showcasing how they reduce plastic in their household to inspire other moms.

But that's not going to resonate outside the echo chamber with a different niche or demographic. And so, my co-founder, who is also my husband, Alex, he's going to reach a totally different audience with the fact that he is rebuilding a boat on social media and showcasing the slightly more sustainable materials that he's using in that process. So...

Seth Larson: Yeah

Carissa Cabrera: ...one of the realities that I try to remember is that we can't be a messenger that's going to resonate with everybody, and so we should just choose what lanes work best with us. And what we do need is we actually need the diversity of content creators and narrative shapers to be united in what the message is, right?

And so right now, it's the fact that plastic is impacting our family's health. Well, that can come from a dad, a kid, a teenager, a college student, a mom, and it can resonate totally differently with different types of audiences. So, we have to really be thinking in that way when it comes to communications around the environment because of the closing window of opportunity we have with so many of these challenges.

Seth Larson: I think that's such an interesting way of looking at this because I think, I hear so frequently in in the media sector particularly, the sort of lamentation that there is no monoculture media anymore, and there is...

Carissa Cabrera: No.

Seth Larson: ... no sort of Walter Cronkite or Tom Brokaw who's going to speak to the whole country in the same way at the same time with a common message that we can all understand and interpret in the same way. And rather than continuing to lament that doesn't exist anymore and hope that a new person or institution is going to arise that's going to break through and get that message across to everyone at once, thinking about leveraging different people who are going to reach those different sub-audiences and kind of putting that all together. A lot more puzzle pieces than maybe existed 50 years ago.

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah.

Seth Larson: If we find all those puzzle pieces and everyone puts them together, then it's going to create the same picture, right?

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah, but you're totally right, we can't fake it. You can't fake authenticity on social media anymore, especially, they know because they're watching your account. They know what's important to you and how you spend your time and your values. You can't just go in there and be like, "You should do it this way," if you're not living it.

And that's why I think one priority for us, at FutureSwell is we're trying to build this media ecosystem where creators of all different backgrounds are pushing on the same issue. But we have a very hands-off approach on how they push on that issue. Just do whatever you think is best. They know their audience the best, and if they're tide poolers, why don't you just showcase the plastic you see in the tide pools? Because people are following you for tide pooling content. And I'm not going to have you go to DC and showcase a lobby day vlog if that's not going to resonate with your audience, right? That might resonate with mine instead. And so that diversity really needs to be celebrated, mobilized, and organized in this day and age.

Seth Larson: Love it.

Erin Simon: We're ending this series on this forward-looking sort of "what do we want the future to be" a little bit. And I think that's really appropriate to think about the youth today and think about the next generation as the rights holders of this issue, right? While there are a lot of older generations that have a lot of power in making decisions today it doesn't necessarily mean that they are doing so in a way that is going to be considering those right holders in the future. And so first I wanna talk with you and think about what does that future look like to you if we do get it right. If we have a treaty that creates harmonized rules across world, if we have companies that invest and follow through with better products, if we have the community and leadership and people engaging what would you hope that world could look like.

Carissa Cabrera: I think it's very important to name it, right, the future you wanna build towards. And it's really important to get super detailed when you envision it, right? And I think when we're talking with other people who work closely in the issue, you can say things like, "I don't want microplastic in breast milk, in my placentas, in my clouds," and, "I want grocery stores to be mostly bulk aisles," and I want it to be easy to choose the plastic-free option. And the challenge is, and how do we get there right now? What's the most foreseeable step? And so I try to keep a big North Star vision, at least in my personal work that is a generational outcome, right? There's only so much we can do with one lifetime, and we all understand, I mean, what did they call it? The Plasticene? Like the, with the plastic issue, that's in geologic time scales, right? And so we have to start thinking about what multiple decades and generations ahead of us will, will live like based off the decisions we do today. And so, it's... I think Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson's "What If We Get It Right" book is really celebrating those futures and those creative pathways to build what we want. But I always want to remind people while there can be a beautiful North Star and a perfect future that we always wanna work towards, that future is only getting closer or farther away based off decisions that we make right now. And so to not feel like it's, not feel like it's so far and unattainable and something our great-grandchildren have to realize, but something that we get to choose to be part of realizing today. That's what gives me hope. It's also really empowering to know that, okay, well...

Erin Simon: Yeah.

Carissa Cabrera: ...it's Tuesday, it's 11:00 AM, what can I do today for that future? But you have to have that clarity of what the future is you're building to even think about, well, what does a step forward to that look like? So I just encourage everyone listening to think about your own respective beautiful future that you want, and envision it in really deep clarity and detail 'cause it's going to help you and your family and your community get a little closer.

Erin Simon: Yeah, sometimes I think about Frozen 2 and what Elsa says and she always says, take that next right step.

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah.

Erin Simon: And I think it's the most basic thing but it... what can I do right now and what can I do right now that's going to have this trickle-down effect that will help me get to the outcomes I wanna see. If you were to have an opportunity to inform some of those decision-makers today about what you need to get to the future you want, what are some of your hopes and dreams of companies and policymakers today that maybe we can help push for as we have those conversations?

Carissa Cabrera: My hopes and dreams as someone who is a little bit more passionate about activism and advocacy is I would really like us to start addressing petrochemical subsidies as a motivator for plastic production. Because while that might feel a little granular to someone who's new to the marine debris conversation, we cannot achieve a plastic reduced world without addressing the systems of power and influence that shape what makes plastic pollution so pervasive and cheap and competitive in the market.

And so that requires a lot of resistance work and narrative building and long-term education of how environmentalists view that connection between plastics and fossil fuels and climate. And I think that I want my energy in the plastics world to move towards that so that decision makers can understand that if we don't make the healthier, better for the planet, better for people option the more accessible one, we're not going to get over that hill as far as shifting the systems at play. And there's a reason that we're in the systems we're in, and we can address those reasons.

Erin Simon: Yeah, I do think there's hope for that right? We're constantly essentially workarounds to those things in the system that we think are just so fundamental that they we can't change. And I do feel like on oil and gas subsidies those have felt like something that has been harder to get to.

They make it hard for any incumbent to be at cost parity, and we... that makes it very difficult to look at new reuse systems or recycled content, which are arguably a key part of that future system where plastic is not ending up in nature.

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah.

Erin Simon: Which is what I envision. I don't wanna go to my beach every weekend and find plastic, because always there, right?

One thing that might... that has been really helpful for me when I think about the... the really global decision-making spaces that you're in, Erin, versus the really grassroot level. I think that when these really big convenings happen and there's a small step forward, I hear a lot of sentiment on social media of, "We should be doing more." This happens at the climate conference, this happens at ocean conferences, and how is that the only outcome we got? But for me, I really view it as the steps forward that we take are smaller the further we go up in power and system and scale. And so if you feel really motivated by big steps forward, maybe that's an indicator for you as a changemaker that you should really be at the local or grassroots level, versus if you can think in a lifetime or in generations and you can fight really hard for that one tiny step at that international level, maybe that's where you belong. And so instead of it being pitted against each other as we all need to be taking giant steps forward, I know that's what we all want ultimately, but to recognize that, they're all kind of contributing to the shared future we're building, and that criticizing them could really be energy we could be criticizing towards the systems that are preventing the steps forward in the first place. That has been helpful for me when I interface in dialogue on social media about why we haven't done enough at some of these large international convenings.

I think that's important. That is what serves up the hope that we need.

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah.

Erin Simon: The reality is, what has happened in plastics in the last five years is much more than what has happened in other major issues from a timescale perspective. It's a fraction of the time. And so, it's not fast enough for the planet. It's not fast enough for the humans depending on the planet, but it is absolutely moving faster than we've moved historically. And so that is... but there are all these micro-steps as you said. And we do a disservice to each other in this large community of changemakers when we dismiss progress in any form that is a part of that scale of change that we're trying to do.

Carissa Cabrera: For you all who work on this day in and day out, do you think that our snowball has reached... has gone over the main hill, the peak? Like, how... Do you think that we are on the other side, and it's... it's now accelerating 'cause of what you shared about, the last, the pace of the last five years?

Seth Larson: I'm going to let you answer that first, Erin.

Erin Simon: I think it's such a good question, right? I think of it as a tipping point, like when I'm no longer having to help get levers pulled or, inflection points to... that are essentially mimicking what a natural market would do. I would say we're not there yet because while we are expanding the supply by putting EPR policies in place in the US and other countries, we're still the first few years, and we haven't matched that new indicated supply with the appropriate demand, and so there is not equal demand and supply.

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah.

Erin Simon: While I don't think we're there yet, from a policy perspective in the US, I think we're getting there. I think we have a ways to go on getting us there for reuse, but I'm hoping that we can look at some major events coming up, like LA '28, the World Cup, and think about how we can utilize these major events and, sort of immersive experiences to create more legacy. Yeah, no, not quite there yet, but I am... I see the peak.

Seth Larson: Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I have a lot less expertise than Erin in this space. I come at this from a media and a general audience perspective. But to me, I think I've seen this come in... come and go in waves over the last decade or so, where there were peaks in public interest and concern about plastic pollution. Certainly there was a big moment around plastic straws in particular, where every restaurant that all of us went to switched to paper straws maybe seven, eight, nine years ago. And then there was kind of a backlash to that. But there's still, I think, a ton of interest and attention to the fact that so many people still see plastic all around them in their daily lives. There was a big documentary on Netflix not too long ago that I think has put this into the public discussions again. I think there are going to continue to be these peaks and valleys. But every time there is one of those peaks, I think you bring more people along with you than you lose, and ultimately that builds toward there being a big moment at some point where everything comes together and we get the global plastics treaty or whatever the...

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah.

Seth Larson: I'm optimistic that we're getting closer and closer. When that moment comes, I don't know.

Carissa Cabrera: Yeah. And I think about, you asked me at the beginning of this episode, Seth, what was the aha moment where you jumped from research to storytelling. That moment of plastic straw bans and voluntary opt-outs, that was catalyzed by, yes, long-term work by organizations. But there was a tipping point moment that was catalyzed by a viral social media post, and I never forgot that. When I when I was a graduate student and I watched it, and then I watched multiple localized jurisdictions pass legislation associated with plastic straws just because the cultural moment called for it because of discourse that happened in the town square on social media. So that is just a reminder of how important it is that we need all of these different... You never know what's going to hit, and you have to be ready, too. All of the organizations that had been working on plastic, like WWF, were ready when that moment was finally like, "Oh, the decision-makers now know. Everyone saw that video, and now we can move on this one inflection point." And so it requires all of us, so, thank you for highlighting that.

Seth Larson: Carissa, thank you so much for being here with us today. This is a super fun conversation. I enjoyed being the, the layperson at the table here learning from both of you. I think this was a really great conversation. Erin, I don't know if you have any closing words.

Erin Simon: Now, I'm just-- I'm so grateful that you're doing the work that you're doing. It is... It's vital. It's important. I am excited to learn more about it. I think that, learning about what's successful on the ground is how we learn what's going to be successful moving forward. And so, you have a lot to teach us. But also just thank you for your time. we appreciate that.

Carissa Cabrera: Thank you both for a beautiful conversation, for thoughtful questions, and also for building the bridges between communications and advocacy for nature. It's something that I know we need, and I echo that sentiment, Erin, that I'm just so grateful for the decades-long work you all have been doing in conservation that now we can build from.

Erin Simon: Amazing. Thanks.

Carissa Cabrera: Erin, that was an awesome conversation with Carissa. Yeah, I really loved it. I'm dying to know what stood out to you?

Erin Simon: I think what stood out to me the most is how Carissa was able to emphasize and understand the different paths that are needed all together. Yeah ... to, for this to all work, right?

She really understood that whether it's policy or business or community action or storytelling, there's not just one way to be a part of the solution. And I found that really inspiring, which was great, right? And it's also really important for us to be able to scale the change and sort of build up this army of folks who are working together with us.

Seth Larson: Yeah, I mean, right exactly on that point, I loved how Carissa talked about the importance of communicating with people, and not just raising awareness, but inspiring them to feel like they have the power to take action and make a difference. And it just really drove home that we're never going to make the progress we need on this unless we do have that army of people who are not only just aware that there's a problem, but they feel really motivated and passionate about doing the things required to drive change.

Erin Simon: Yeah, exactly. I think she did a, also a great job of reminding us that at times, especially when you're sort of on the ground in these issues, it feels like progress is slow.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Erin Simon: But it's actually happening, and I loved her explanation of that, right? Whether it's the local policies, the global negotiations, or just the shift in the general public's awareness around this issue, we're seeing real momentum.

Seth Larson: Yeah, and that momentum, it's not always going to be linear, right? Yeah. It's not going to be a straight line. There's going to be peaks and valleys and hills, and it's going to be two steps backwards and two steps forwards at some points. Yeah. But, over time, more and more people are coming into this conversation, and that's really important, too.

Erin Simon: Yeah. I think it's really important to understand that big, systemic change that we are trying to push forward is not going to be easy. It's going to be hard.

Seth Larson: Yeah.

Erin Simon: And we're going to hit those roadblocks, and that's okay. What I like about the takeaways from this episode, and really honestly from the whole series, is that solving plastic pollution is going to take all of us. It's going to take different skills, different perspectives, different roles, and then all of us sort of pulling in the same direction, a direction that is pulling it out of nature. Yeah.

Seth Larson: Well, can you believe it? We've made it to the end of our three-part series.

Erin Simon: I'm sad, actually. Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us on this journey. Hopefully everybody is inspired with some actions they can take, whether it's learning from the past, the stuff we're doing right now in the present, or just envisioning that future and then, and being a part of it.

Seth Larson: Yeah. Well, we should end with a thank you to our guests who joined us in these episodes. I really appreciated their time and perspective. Thanks to you, Erin, for, of course, being an awesome co-host. I've really enjoyed having these conversations with you and doing this together.

Erin Simon: Thanks so much, Seth, for having me. I really appreciate it.

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Unwrapped: The Plastic Crisis (Part 3) | Turning Awareness Into Action